tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post3482943518058079244..comments2023-06-10T08:37:15.879-06:00Comments on Obsidian Bookshelf blog: Head hopping is the work of the devil.Valhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16732605505724248028noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-90376756054640047032010-07-08T11:36:21.776-06:002010-07-08T11:36:21.776-06:00It definitely makes you wonder. ;)It definitely makes you wonder. ;)Average Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955137026396047753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-24737824300081431262010-07-07T23:37:54.495-06:002010-07-07T23:37:54.495-06:00LOL! And you wonder how it got to be a movieLOL! And you wonder how it got to be a movieStourmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01196272943937321495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-70543687694273027322010-07-07T22:55:26.398-06:002010-07-07T22:55:26.398-06:00Hi, Stourmy, I think your approach is good -- chan...Hi, Stourmy, I think your approach is good -- change POV chapter by chapter. Even scene by scene is fine by me so long as there is a space break and a consistent pattern gets established for us readers. <br /><br />I started reading <i>The Client</i> by John Grisham the other day (my first Grisham book ever), and in the first few pages, he was head-hopping even though he'd established a pattern of changing POV scene-by-scene with a space break. <br /><br />Then, in a single scene, he gives us the kid's POV and then suddenly the lawyer's POV. I'm thinking, <i>OMG! Grisham is head-hopping!</i>Average Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955137026396047753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-38807078484103523492010-07-07T21:25:22.632-06:002010-07-07T21:25:22.632-06:00As an unpublished writer I can see how head-hoppin...As an unpublished writer I can see how head-hopping can get started. You have to BE all of YOUR characters and sometimes you forget whose POV you are writing. So instead of "Grace watched Donovan walk across the room and climb gracefully onto the bed, smirking knowingly at her as he stripped and showed her what naughty thoughts he was thinking” You might end up with “Grace watched Donovan cross the room and climb onto the bed. He smirked at her, thinking of what he wanted to do to her.” This is a very quick example that I can think of and I am sure if I were to rewrite it, it might sounds better but I think it proves my point. Although I agree head hopping can be lethal to a book, it is possible to do and my preferred method is change characters each chapter.Stourmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01196272943937321495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-24381277129411534022010-03-01T19:37:35.373-07:002010-03-01T19:37:35.373-07:00Ohhhh, I see what you mean! That is a unique situa...Ohhhh, I see what you mean! That is a unique situation!Average Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955137026396047753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-60109899688613519362010-03-01T19:06:16.139-07:002010-03-01T19:06:16.139-07:00Actually, I was thinking very specific we, as in N...Actually, I was thinking very specific we, as in Naomi and me. The Role-play/chat format we use means I am in both heads but I have to limit the prose PoV.Angelia Sparrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04980408280435868479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-41337049537512095772010-03-01T18:23:22.110-07:002010-03-01T18:23:22.110-07:00Hi, Angelia! Thank you for the comment (and the ti...Hi, Angelia! Thank you for the comment (and the title -- that was going to be rolling around in the back of my mind, trying to get me to remember it). <br /><br />You said, <i>" It's a hazard of the way we write."</i> That sounds about right. It must be some unconscious thing that arises in the early drafts from the writer trying to explore the characters one at a time as they show up ...Average Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955137026396047753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-60143191031343026702010-03-01T17:58:22.534-07:002010-03-01T17:58:22.534-07:00Val, your Koontz book is called WATCHERS. It's...Val, your Koontz book is called WATCHERS. It's one of the few I've read.<br /><br />The worst case of head-hopping I've encountered is in Sherrilyn Kenyon's DEVIL MAY CRY.<br /><br />I had a head-hopping problem when I first started. It's a hazard of the way we write.Angelia Sparrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04980408280435868479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-67472084198082005582010-03-01T16:27:30.085-07:002010-03-01T16:27:30.085-07:00Hi, Jenre, Mara, and K.Z.! Thanks for the comments...Hi, Jenre, Mara, and K.Z.! Thanks for the comments!<br /><br />Jenre, you said, <i>"Yes, yes, yes!!!</i>. I love the emphasis! I assume that means you're standing with me and Kassa and Lyrical Press on the issue, ha, ha! I know just what you mean about the minor characters chiming in. I almost want to tell them to butt out and leave me alone with the main characters!<br /><br />Mara, you said, <i>"new writers do it because they don't realize it's something they shouldn't do."</i> That must be it. And maybe they acquire a fan base really fast in genre as new as m/m romance, and then the ones coming behind them are using them as role models.<br /><br />You said, <i>"I wish more editors would encourage writers to stretch out the point of view and give the reader time to dwell in one soul at a time."</i> Absolutely! You raise an important point, which is that it's impossible to form a connection with a character if you don't stay in their head long enough. And I'm glad you enjoyed my swimming pool analogy! <br /><br />K.Z., you said, <i>" It's also the sign of a very lenient editor."</i> Oh, gosh! Or maybe even a new one that doesn't know any better?<br /><br />You said, <i>"There is a difference, though, between multiple POVs and head hopping ... the switches can be done ... sparingly and with appropriate breaks</i>" Very good point that there is a right way and a wrong way to do those POV switches! And the wrong way definitely would be the <i>Hippity-hopping between or within paragraphs."</i><br /><br />This ... <i>"the narrating character subtly kept stepping outside himself, if you know what I mean."</i> OMG, I'd love it if you came back and gave us an example! I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure.<br /><br />You mean something like, <i>"Edgar knew that he had to get the best possible deal in the sale. No one could run down a bargain like Edgar could because he was the smartest man in the building"</i>? Where we're given extra information that would sound conceited or weird for him to actually think (as well as him not being able to know if he really is the smartest man in the building)?Average Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955137026396047753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-5011924278564183352010-03-01T15:40:37.413-07:002010-03-01T15:40:37.413-07:00You're right about it often being the sign of ...You're right about it often being the sign of a new writer, Val. It's also the sign of a very lenient editor. I did it in my early het romances and was never corrected.<br /><br />There is a difference, though, between multiple POVs and head hopping. If a writer has an "ensemble cast," so to speak, wherein all the characters carry equal weight, or it's important to present the storyline from both protags' viewpoints because they have different perspectives of equal value, the swtches can be done. They just have to be done sparingly and with appropriate breaks, as Jen and Mara said. <br /><br />Hippity-hopping between or within paragraphs is generally considered a major no-no. Yet a lot of readers don't seem to mind. (Look at how many fans Urban & Roux have!) The practice actually doesn't bother me <i>too</i> much if I find the story and characters engaging. Like Tam, I simply "switch into head-hop mode." :-) <br /><br />I recently read an excerpt from a very highly regarded author in which the narrating character subtly kept stepping outside himself, if you know what I mean. So breaking from POV doesn't always take the form of head hopping.K. Z. Snowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01373906799954038740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-28823655209537184962010-03-01T14:49:06.122-07:002010-03-01T14:49:06.122-07:00I think new writers do it because they don't r...I think new writers do it because they don't realize it's something they shouldn't do. And then they keep doing it when they don't have an editor who will send back their work with a note telling them to fix it. (Or they don't read articles like yours that warns them against it.)<br /><br />I don't buy head-hop novels because I like to snuggle right down into one character's pov for a long stretch of the story or even the whole story. Alternating points of view work fine, as long as we're in one point of view for a big meaty section before we switch to another. Switching sentence by sentence is, as you beautifully describe it, like being dunked into consecutive pools with no chance to catch your breath. Head-hopping pretty much ruins a story for me. I wish more editors would encourage writers to stretch out the point of view and give the reader time to dwell in one soul at a time.Marahttp://www.tamara-allen.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-37431454928466875362010-03-01T14:46:14.350-07:002010-03-01T14:46:14.350-07:00Yes, yes, yes!!!
Headhopping drives me nuts, espe...Yes, yes, yes!!!<br /><br />Headhopping drives me nuts, especially when it's so jarring that it pulls you out of the story and makes you have to back-track just so you can get it right as to whose head you are in.<br /><br />I've just read a book by a new author where the headhopping was rife and even minor characters got in with the headhopping action. I can understand swapping between the two man protags, but to include minor characters as well was really annoying.Jenrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15492693697232134724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-65015123030500897662010-03-01T14:33:18.096-07:002010-03-01T14:33:18.096-07:00Hi, Chris and Kassa! Thank you for the comments.
...Hi, Chris and Kassa! Thank you for the comments.<br /><br />Chris, you reminded me of something with names. It can drive me nuts when an author switches back and forth between given name and surname. I think Emerson should have said, <i>"A foolish </i>IN<i>consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."</i><br /><br />And Kassa, you said, <i>"I think I may love you Val."</i><br /><br />Ha, ha! Thank you! I guess it's not just me and Lyrical Press united in our mutual dislike of head-hopping. How gratifying that you feel as strongly about it as I do. :) <br /><br />I haven't yet read the book you mentioned, but POV shifts LINE by LINE? Eeek!Average Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955137026396047753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-82323932025284655932010-03-01T13:33:18.107-07:002010-03-01T13:33:18.107-07:00I think I may love you Val. I mean I already *knew...I think I may love you Val. I mean I already *knew* I did but this post is pure gold. <br />Pure Gold. <br /><br />I may need to link to it evermore even.<br /><br />Head hopping is often a sign of a new writer. Not always as I know of several writing duos that still can't keep their heads straight but you almost always see this in debut authors. A lot of times you can forgive it but this is something that has made me put down a book and simply can't finish. <br /><br />For example the head hopping in Cut & Run is so bad I couldn't finish the book. I was so frustrated with the paragraph by paragraph (and sometimes line by line) POV shifts I had a headache trying to figure out who was saying what. <br /><br />This is so important and I wish editors would make this much more of an issue to correct. I realize authors don't always realize they are doing this, but more and more this is almost a cardinal sin. Certainly one that can be forgiven on a case by case basis but best to be avoided. <br /><br />Thank you again!Kassahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11492731096086969911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-21644834685974495092010-03-01T13:01:16.444-07:002010-03-01T13:01:16.444-07:00Heh, I'm thinking particularly of some books t...Heh, I'm thinking particularly of some books that Tam and I read recently in which the guys' names were dealt with weirdly. She mentioned it, I then read the books and it drove me nuts and ranted about it, then she read something else and couldn't stop focusing on the names, etc.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12959009113795804133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-3993000682335702342010-03-01T12:56:08.779-07:002010-03-01T12:56:08.779-07:00Hi, Chris and Tam, thanks for the further comments...Hi, Chris and Tam, thanks for the further comments. This is very enlightening! <br /><br />I tend to be somewhat against head hopping -- ha! ha! -- an understatement as you might have guessed from the post title. And yet you all don't seem to mind head hopping nearly as much as I do, or not at all. Clearly this is food for thought ... <br /><br />There must be a big range out there of acceptable writing for the readers even if I don't happen to like head hopping myself. I don't even like too many extraneous viewpoints, such as when a minor character suddenly provides a perspective and then is never heard from again. But I wouldn't pick on that in a review.<br /><br />Chris, you said, <i>"I guess it's a matter of how well the author handles the shifts.</i><br /><br />That's the key. A truly skilled writer can break almost any rule.<br /><br />Tam, you said, <i>"Sheesh, you'll notice however that didn't stop me from rambling on. Sorry.</i> No, no, this is great! I love that you have this much to say and are this passionate about the topic!<br /><br />I totally agree with you about the sex scene in two perspectives -- it does slow everything down and makes it weirdly artificial. As you point out, we readers are smart enough to get it and realize that both partners had a good (or even mind-blowing) time.<br /><br />What you say here, <i>"Once I realize it's happening it seems to be natural for me to read it that way, I switch in head-hop mode I guess"</i> I'm unable to do real well as a reader. There just doesn't seem to be a pattern to head-hopping, and so I'm always trying to regroup when it happens and figure out where we are and if we even need the information ...<br /><br /><i>"But, see, now you're sensitized to it,"</i><br /><br /><i>Damn you guys for teaching me all this literary stuff. :-P"</i><br /><br />Ha, ha, ha! The simultaneous curse of reviewing while writing!Average Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955137026396047753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-6256476048045360452010-03-01T12:54:00.601-07:002010-03-01T12:54:00.601-07:00Sigh. Probably Chris. Damn you guys for teaching m...Sigh. Probably Chris. Damn you guys for teaching me all this literary stuff. :-PTamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15495571402942021799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-18562256659995348302010-03-01T12:51:44.833-07:002010-03-01T12:51:44.833-07:00But, see, now you're sensitized to it, Tam, so...But, see, now you're sensitized to it, Tam, so the next time you read it, it'll drive you batshit. :DChrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12959009113795804133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-1779498464556388532010-03-01T12:38:30.674-07:002010-03-01T12:38:30.674-07:00"so I'm prehaps not the best person to co...<i>"so I'm prehaps not the best person to comment on this topic. "</i><br /><br />Sheesh, you'll notice however that didn't stop me from rambling on. Sorry.Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15495571402942021799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-2768423246052680802010-03-01T12:36:32.183-07:002010-03-01T12:36:32.183-07:00I can't believe Chris of all people would say ...I can't believe Chris of all people would say a cat has nothing useful to contribute. For shame cat-lady, for shame. <br /><br />I'm one of those people who in general don't find head hopping all that annoying as long as it's not every single paragraph. Once I realize it's happening it seems to be natural for me to read it that way, I switch in head-hop mode I guess. <br /><br />I do find it annoying when in a sex scene every experience is given two perspectives. So that each experience has two paragraphs to explain how each one felt about each kiss, touch, etc. It's like having consecutive translation at an event. Drags it out twice as long. I can't remember where I read that, but I just wanted to skip every other paragraph and get on with it because really, it felt great to both of them, I got that. <br /><br />Your example of head hopping was fine with me. LOL I did write something that was mostly from one point of view with about 25% from the other. I ended up trying to erase the 25% because it seemed kind of weird to get most of the info from one guy and then just the odd glimpse from the other. I thought I either needed to strengthen the one or get rid of it and I couldn't hear it enough to strengthen it. Wrong? Not sure but I don't want to hear one thrown out thought from a character every 30 pages when the others are all from the other character. <br /><br />I can't really think of any I've read off hand with more than two or three. I think Chris' book had 11 so that would be extreme. Animals can be funny. Tory Temple did her <i>Catching Karma</i> with what the animals were thinking but it was in animal speak "fooooood" "fooooood" and the guy could hear animals thoughts to it made sense. <br /><br />I know though often people go "OMG, the head hopping made me crazy." and I'm like "Huh? What head hopping? I don't get it?" so I'm prehaps not the best person to comment on this topic. LOLTamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15495571402942021799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-58649467376626479682010-03-01T12:35:22.113-07:002010-03-01T12:35:22.113-07:00No idea why writers like to provide the pet's ...No idea why writers like to provide the pet's perspective. In this case, it was a little squicky, because the cat kept thinking about its "Daddy", which was really weird in amidst the sex scenes.<br /><br />I remember reading a review of Urban & Roux's The One That Got Away - the reviewer noting that there was a lot of head hopping going on. Interestingly, I didn't notice it as being disruptive either time I read that book. I guess it's a matter of how well the author handles the shifts.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12959009113795804133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-6569190107252396712010-03-01T12:13:54.923-07:002010-03-01T12:13:54.923-07:00Hi, Chris! Thanks for the comment. Any guesses as ...Hi, Chris! Thanks for the comment. Any guesses as to why writers like to do this? I feel a little out of touch since I'm so much against it ...<br /><br />I do remember a Dean Koontz book (but not the title, unfortunately) where he told a chapter from the viewpoint of a golden retriever, and he did a terrific job. <br /><br />It was all <i> "Oh, goodie! Oh, goodie! We get to go for a ride in the car and stick our heads out the windows! Oh, joy!"</i> Whether this was anything useful to add, I don't remember, but it was fun!Average Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955137026396047753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6937658685163119346.post-70789197340910301792010-03-01T12:03:53.457-07:002010-03-01T12:03:53.457-07:00One of the worst cases of head hopping I've re...One of the worst cases of head hopping I've read recently was in Feeling Safe by Sonja Spencer. For a while, it was happening in every paragraph... and included the cat. Really, the cat didn't have anything useful to add. :)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12959009113795804133noreply@blogger.com